Oh, the philosphical thicket that could be explored here..... :-)

I agree with Nadine and Frank. Though the planters would never know
that these two had been there and therefore wouldn't know they'd been
cheated, they'd still have been cheated. There is a kind of compact
amongst letterboxers - clues are provided in the expectation that
finders will stamp in. That's one of the main points of the
game's/hobby's design - a design that incorporates both planter and
finder, not just one of them. If you simply want to find a spot, pick a
point on a map and see if you can get there - solve a crossword before
you go if you want a puzzle. Or they could write clues for each other
if it's the challenge they want.

That said, maybe they'd be willing to 'stamp in' with a fingerprint?
It's not exactly a stamp, but with a note, it'd at least let the
planter find a record of who had been to the box. Even a store-bought
stamp would only take a few minutes to enter into the logbook and it'd
surely be preferable to nothing. If they dont' want their own logbook,
so be it, but my vote is that they stamp in somehow.

.00004 of a cent on a good day, really. :-)
pezpam

On Monday, January 31, 2005, at 12:08 PM, frankandnadine wrote:

>
>
> Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
> that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
> weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
> reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
> it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
> finding the boxes.
> Our reply was that it certainly is about the stamps (as well as
> the adventure), that the stamps are the evidence that you've found
> the boxes, that they're the evidence of the adventure.
> Boyo says says that his memory is the evidence of the adventure.
> Nadine and I say that the planter of the box has done so in the
> expectation of ending up with a logbook full of the stamps of that
> box's finders. If you don't leave a stamp, you're kind of cheating
> the planter. (Boyo never said whether they'd sign the logs or not.)
> Nadine says that if you don't leave and take stamp impressions, that
> you're just digging around in the bushes, that you're missing the
> point. Frank always agrees with Nadine.
> Now Nadine and I are curious about your reactions. So what do you
> think--are Boyo and Wifey simply wrong (or wrong-headed), or are
> Nadine and Frank entirely too traditional and by-the-book?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I say give it time - once they've gone out and found a few boxes and gotten
addicted they'll then want to do it "properly" - I bet they'll even go back
and stamp in the first few boxes they found :-)

Cheers,

Judi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: frankandnadine [mailto:frankandnadine@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 6:09
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?
>
>
>
>
> Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
> that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
> weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
> reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
> it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
> finding the boxes.
> Our reply was that it certainly is about the stamps (as well as
> the adventure), that the stamps are the evidence that you've found
> the boxes, that they're the evidence of the adventure.
> Boyo says says that his memory is the evidence of the adventure.
> Nadine and I say that the planter of the box has done so in the
> expectation of ending up with a logbook full of the stamps of that
> box's finders. If you don't leave a stamp, you're kind of cheating
> the planter. (Boyo never said whether they'd sign the logs or not.)
> Nadine says that if you don't leave and take stamp impressions, that
> you're just digging around in the bushes, that you're missing the
> point. Frank always agrees with Nadine.
> Now Nadine and I are curious about your reactions. So what do you
> think--are Boyo and Wifey simply wrong (or wrong-headed), or are
> Nadine and Frank entirely too traditional and by-the-book?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Give the gift of life to a sick child.
> Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks &
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> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

What's the point if you're not going to stamp in? If you want to
hike, get a hiking book (I have a few!). If you want to see urban
places of interest, get a guide book. It sounds like they want to
have the fun of letterboxing without the "work" and without the
social aspect. And are they going to reciprocate with boxes of their
own or are they just going to find and not plant? That's a little
selfish, don't ya think?

There are a lot of ways to play this game and what makes it fun is
seeing how others play. But how can we see how you play if you don't
let us know that you ARE playing?

We'll, I was thinking I might write a friend a letter but, then I decided to
just send the envelope. It isn't just the journey there that makes it a letter
it's what's inside. It isn't just finding letterboxes but leaving the stamp,
or note that makes it complete! It is kind of unfair to the placer. They have
placed the box there for the enjoyment of others and in return their enjoyment
is your stamp. It's like playing soccer, basketball or another sport and
deciding not to kick it in the goal or basketball in the hoop, that is the point
to score to stamp etc...but there are always those who do not want to follow
the rules....
My thoughts anyways.....



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "frankandnadine" wrote:
>
> Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
> that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
> weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
> reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
> it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
> finding the boxes.

Frank and Nadine:

I don't think we have enough info to form an opinion. Perhaps they aren't ready to make
a commitment to this obsession, er hobby. You did say he was a sortof grown man.
Maybe they need to see for themselves how others do it, so as not to come up short of
someone's expectations (wink, wink)? Is their intent good? I would want to know where
they "didn't letterbox properly", just in case they planned to do harm to letterboxes. Not
accusing them, but a few evildoers have been known to find boxes and "leave no trace."
Keep us posted when they discover the fun of Real Letterboxing.

They can at least bring a pen and sign in with a comment.

STAR:W+S=DRR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's a good idea. Better than nothing. I've had a couple of new people do that. It was like they wanted to see if the box would reeeeeaaaaallllly be there but they hadn't invested in carving a stamp yet. So they signed their names and the date and e-mailed me and told me what they did. I appreciated the fact that they didn't just open it, look at it, put it back and then leave.
missmoon


----- Original Message -----
From:
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/31/2005 3:33:28 PM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?


They can at least bring a pen and sign in with a comment.

STAR:W+S=DRR

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's like getting your kid to try something new on his dinner plate,
let him sample it and if he likes it OK, if he doesn't that's OK too,
just don't make an issue out of it.

Cheers,
catbead


>Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
>that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
>weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
>reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
>it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
>finding the boxes.
> Our reply was that it certainly is about the stamps (as well as
>the adventure), that the stamps are the evidence that you've found
>the boxes, that they're the evidence of the adventure.
> Boyo says says that his memory is the evidence of the adventure.
> Nadine and I say that the planter of the box has done so in the
>expectation of ending up with a logbook full of the stamps of that
>box's finders. If you don't leave a stamp, you're kind of cheating
>the planter. (Boyo never said whether they'd sign the logs or not.)
>Nadine says that if you don't leave and take stamp impressions, that
>you're just digging around in the bushes, that you're missing the
>point. Frank always agrees with Nadine.
> Now Nadine and I are curious about your reactions. So what do you
>think--are Boyo and Wifey simply wrong (or wrong-headed), or are
>Nadine and Frank entirely too traditional and by-the-book?

Personally I find the stamps the thing that gives letterboxing it's feeling
of community and humanity. The stamps are why I prefer Letterboxing much
more than geocaching. Maybe they would like that better if they just want
the hunt.

Somecomic

_____

From: frankandnadine [mailto:frankandnadine@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:09 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?



Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
finding the boxes.
Our reply was that it certainly is about the stamps (as well as
the adventure), that the stamps are the evidence that you've found
the boxes, that they're the evidence of the adventure.
Boyo says says that his memory is the evidence of the adventure.
Nadine and I say that the planter of the box has done so in the
expectation of ending up with a logbook full of the stamps of that
box's finders. If you don't leave a stamp, you're kind of cheating
the planter. (Boyo never said whether they'd sign the logs or not.)
Nadine says that if you don't leave and take stamp impressions, that
you're just digging around in the bushes, that you're missing the
point. Frank always agrees with Nadine.
Now Nadine and I are curious about your reactions. So what do you
think--are Boyo and Wifey simply wrong (or wrong-headed), or are
Nadine and Frank entirely too traditional and by-the-book?





_____

Yahoo! Groups Links


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* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Solving the intriguing clue, experiencing an interesting hike we
otherwise would never have known about, learning some unique &
little known tidbit of history about a region, capstoned with the
reward of a unique handcarved stamp in your 'Indiana Jones style'
leather bound journal that documents your adventure along the way is
what kind of what does it for us. Knowing that only a tiny fraction
of the world even knows about the hobby is sort of cool, too!

The resulting friendships, unexpected health benefits & $$$ we save
from other hobbies we no longer participate in always helps,
too! ;)

dvn2r ckr

If it is just about the find, then why shouldn't
placers leave empty boxes? Just some sort of symbol
to tag up on?

If someone takes the time to carve a stamp, choose a
location they want to share with others, then select a
clever hiding place and write the clues, they deserve
a little something to "thank" them - a mark to
indicate that someone else was sufficiently enticed to
go out and find it. Kind of an artistic "thumbs up."
No question - store bought is better than nothing.

In a way, it's like going to a very nice restaurant,
getting outstanding service, enjoying the food, then
slipping out without tipping.

Knowing that we are all hiders and seekers, and
remembering those pre-LB times when we were ignorant
and uninformed of what was right under our noses, part
of the thrill is the secret we all share and the
little bits of treasure we give to and take from each
other.

Yes, they are cheating the placer, but it's also like
they are spying on us - seeing if we really exist.
Eavesdropping on a whispered secret. And really, they
cheat themselves too because by being invisible they
don't get to be a part of the inner secret.

HOWEVER, I wouldn't fault them for trying it out JUST
to see if it is really out there. I would hope that
the find would inspire them to dig a little deeper,
expand themselves to get the whole experience. Maybe
it's not about the stamps for them - so let them use
store-bought (but let's not start THAT debate up
again!). Maybe, with a little guidance from Wiser
Ones, they will find their way into it if they aren't
pushed away for their approach.

Just my .02,
Lucy




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Ah heck. Pretty please???
mizzzzzzmoon


so let them use
store-bought (but let's not start THAT debate up
again!).


Just my .02,
Lucy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are hundreds of people out there that seek but do not plant. And
that's OK with me. There are many many roles to play in this game. This
weekend I went and replaced a log book that had filled up. Over half the
finds were from groups that this was their very first box ever. That means
the the vast majority of the stamps were store bought and several had no
stamp at all, just a quick note. Was I disappointed? No way. Was I upset
that only 3 people in this book have planted boxes in my area (or anywhere)?
Nope. I was thrilled to see the messages about how much fun they had looking
for my box. I don't plant boxes in hopes that others will do so as well. I
plant boxes in hopes that it will bring a moment of fun, a laugh, a smile,
even a YIPPEE. I plant boxes because I am inspired to do so. I plant boxes
because I've got these really cool idea for a stamp/location/clue that I
just HAVE to put out there. Some of my boxes have never had a visitor that I
know of. Does this bother me? Nope. Not at all. If they wish to go and seek,
to experience the thrill of solving a difficult clue to a hidden treasure,
but not stamp in and let me know they were there.. hey, that just gives me
something to ponder on nights that I'm walking the floors because I can't
sleep. Just WHO is peeking in to my boxes and not stamping in.

Relax all. It's just a game.

Maiden
-----Original Message-----
From: judithsparky [mailto:judith.e.barber@irs.gov]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:11 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?



What's the point if you're not going to stamp in? If you want to
hike, get a hiking book (I have a few!). If you want to see urban
places of interest, get a guide book. It sounds like they want to
have the fun of letterboxing without the "work" and without the
social aspect. And are they going to reciprocate with boxes of their
own or are they just going to find and not plant? That's a little
selfish, don't ya think?

There are a lot of ways to play this game and what makes it fun is
seeing how others play. But how can we see how you play if you don't
let us know that you ARE playing?





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the point isn't that they only seek, but that
they haven't learned to value what they find enough to
leave their own mark.

You're right it IS just a game, and we shouldn't get
too judgmental about how they choose to seek, but I
still agree that they are cheating all involved,
including themselves, by not experiencing the whole
game. Kind of like playing Monopoly without the
money...it IS a game, but it isn't as much fun for
anyone who is playing if there isn't some sort of
fodder to trade. In our case, our fodder is stamp
images.

Lucy


--- Melanie wrote:

> There are hundreds of people out there that seek but
> do not plant. And
> that's OK with me. There are many many roles to play
> in this game. This
> weekend I went and replaced a log book that had
> filled up. Over half the
> finds were from groups that this was their very
> first box ever. That means
> the the vast majority of the stamps were store
> bought and several had no
> stamp at all, just a quick note. Was I disappointed?
> No way. Was I upset
> that only 3 people in this book have planted boxes
> in my area (or anywhere)?
> Nope. I was thrilled to see the messages about how
> much fun they had looking
> for my box. I don't plant boxes in hopes that others
> will do so as well. I
> plant boxes in hopes that it will bring a moment of
> fun, a laugh, a smile,
> even a YIPPEE. I plant boxes because I am inspired
> to do so. I plant boxes
> because I've got these really cool idea for a
> stamp/location/clue that I
> just HAVE to put out there. Some of my boxes have
> never had a visitor that I
> know of. Does this bother me? Nope. Not at all. If
> they wish to go and seek,
> to experience the thrill of solving a difficult clue
> to a hidden treasure,
> but not stamp in and let me know they were there..
> hey, that just gives me
> something to ponder on nights that I'm walking the
> floors because I can't
> sleep. Just WHO is peeking in to my boxes and not
> stamping in.
>
> Relax all. It's just a game.
>
> Maiden
> -----Original Message-----
> From: judithsparky
> [mailto:judith.e.barber@irs.gov]
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:11 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?
>
>
>
> What's the point if you're not going to stamp in?
> If you want to
> hike, get a hiking book (I have a few!). If you
> want to see urban
> places of interest, get a guide book. It sounds
> like they want to
> have the fun of letterboxing without the "work"
> and without the
> social aspect. And are they going to reciprocate
> with boxes of their
> own or are they just going to find and not plant?
> That's a little
> selfish, don't ya think?
>
> There are a lot of ways to play this game and what
> makes it fun is
> seeing how others play. But how can we see how
> you play if you don't
> let us know that you ARE playing?
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

Hey

I have this game,

You go to a football field and maybe in ones or twos
go out and walk from the middle to the end.

I'm gonna call it football, whatdya say ?

Neat.

Heartland.


--- Barefoot Lucy wrote:

>
> I think the point isn't that they only seek, but
> that
> they haven't learned to value what they find enough
> to
> leave their own mark.
>
> You're right it IS just a game, and we shouldn't get
> too judgmental about how they choose to seek, but I
> still agree that they are cheating all involved,
> including themselves, by not experiencing the whole
> game. Kind of like playing Monopoly without the
> money...it IS a game, but it isn't as much fun for
> anyone who is playing if there isn't some sort of
> fodder to trade. In our case, our fodder is stamp
> images.
>
> Lucy
>
>
> --- Melanie wrote:
>
> > There are hundreds of people out there that seek
> but
> > do not plant. And
> > that's OK with me. There are many many roles to
> play
> > in this game. This
> > weekend I went and replaced a log book that had
> > filled up. Over half the
> > finds were from groups that this was their very
> > first box ever. That means
> > the the vast majority of the stamps were store
> > bought and several had no
> > stamp at all, just a quick note. Was I
> disappointed?
> > No way. Was I upset
> > that only 3 people in this book have planted boxes
> > in my area (or anywhere)?
> > Nope. I was thrilled to see the messages about how
> > much fun they had looking
> > for my box. I don't plant boxes in hopes that
> others
> > will do so as well. I
> > plant boxes in hopes that it will bring a moment
> of
> > fun, a laugh, a smile,
> > even a YIPPEE. I plant boxes because I am inspired
> > to do so. I plant boxes
> > because I've got these really cool idea for a
> > stamp/location/clue that I
> > just HAVE to put out there. Some of my boxes have
> > never had a visitor that I
> > know of. Does this bother me? Nope. Not at all. If
> > they wish to go and seek,
> > to experience the thrill of solving a difficult
> clue
> > to a hidden treasure,
> > but not stamp in and let me know they were there..
> > hey, that just gives me
> > something to ponder on nights that I'm walking the
> > floors because I can't
> > sleep. Just WHO is peeking in to my boxes and not
> > stamping in.
> >
> > Relax all. It's just a game.
> >
> > Maiden
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: judithsparky
> > [mailto:judith.e.barber@irs.gov]
> > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:11 AM
> > To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [LbNA] What makes it real letterboxing?
> >
> >
> >
> > What's the point if you're not going to stamp
> in?
> > If you want to
> > hike, get a hiking book (I have a few!). If you
> > want to see urban
> > places of interest, get a guide book. It sounds
> > like they want to
> > have the fun of letterboxing without the "work"
> > and without the
> > social aspect. And are they going to
> reciprocate
> > with boxes of their
> > own or are they just going to find and not
> plant?
> > That's a little
> > selfish, don't ya think?
> >
> > There are a lot of ways to play this game and
> what
> > makes it fun is
> > seeing how others play. But how can we see how
> > you play if you don't
> > let us know that you ARE playing?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> > email to:
> > letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> the
> > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

My thought on this would be that if Boyo and Wifey choose not to
have a stamp or keep a logbook themselves, that's their choice, but
I think they should at least give the letterbox the courtesy of a
simple sign-in of some sort - just their names in pen to show the
owner that they'd been there and found the box. (Unless of course
they don't even open the container to see the contents....) I hope
they care enough to "rehide well"!!
Sojourner

You are very, very, funny,

STAR:W+S=DRR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Great, my first posting and I'm feeling the need to say stop
imposing your ideas on the boyo. It's difficult not to when you're
super enthused over this kind of hobby, but maybe they gain
enjoyment in a different way or want to develop their ideas of the
letterboxing as something they created.

Hubby and I had a hard time wrapping our understanding around the
concept when someone tried explaining letterboxing to us.
Repeatedly. So, we trudged through the parks looking for a local
box or two to see how it was done. What kind of stamps? Are store
bought acceptable? What do people say? Do they sign there names?
Or do they use aliases? There are a ton of questions.

During the search, we realized we enjoyed the walk in the park. We
had a great time together, away from the office, the phones, the tv,
and our busy lives. We liked the anonymity of leaving a message.
Also the thrill of the search. Sometimes, albeit rare, we don't
like the tone of the planter or the box and therefore, we leave
behind no mark. Yet, we still enjoyed the hike, the search and
such - that planter gave us a nice moment.

I appreciate that anyone signs any of my hidden treasures, but if
they didn't and I thought they had a nice hike or had nearly as much
fun as I did in preparing and planting the box, then I'm glad to
have brought that bit of fun to someone else - even anonymously.



> Frank and Nadine:
>
> I don't think we have enough info to form an opinion. Perhaps
they aren't ready to make
> a commitment to this obsession, er hobby. You did say he was a
sortof grown man.
> Maybe they need to see for themselves how others do it, so as not
to come up short of
> someone's expectations (wink, wink)? Is their intent good? I
would want to know where
> they "didn't letterbox properly", just in case they planned to do
harm to letterboxes. Not
> accusing them, but a few evildoers have been known to find boxes
and "leave no trace."
> Keep us posted when they discover the fun of Real Letterboxing.

Alright, blindfold me, spin me around and beat me with a stick. I
don't see a real problem with it. If they enjoy boxing enough, I
think that they'll eventually come up to speed and get some sort of
stamp or sign in or something. I think that it is far more important
that they respect the letterboxes and the time and effort that people
have invested in them and handle them with care, rehiding them well.
Perhaps they find the clue based letterbox a more interesting find
than a goecache. I am a letterboxer, primarily, but I have found a
number of virtual geocaches, as well as a few standard, in my area. I
have loved the virtuals because of the places I've been and the
things I've seen. I did not create an account with one of the
geocaching groups and log my finds. I suppose it seems that I'm
cheating the creator of the cache. Yet, still, I don't own a GPS and
don't consider myself a geocacher. Perhaps when I feel a part of
that club, I will do things properly.

Gillian


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "frankandnadine"
wrote:
>
> Just recently, our son--a full-grown adult sort of guy--emailed us
> that he and his wife were going to start letterboxing this past
> weekend. We asked if they had their own stamp, a logbook, etc. The
> reply came back that they were just going to look for boxes, that
> it's not about the stamps anyway, that it's about the adventure of
> finding the boxes.
> Our reply was that it certainly is about the stamps (as well as
> the adventure), that the stamps are the evidence that you've found
> the boxes, that they're the evidence of the adventure.
> Boyo says says that his memory is the evidence of the adventure.
> Nadine and I say that the planter of the box has done so in the
> expectation of ending up with a logbook full of the stamps of that
> box's finders. If you don't leave a stamp, you're kind of cheating
> the planter. (Boyo never said whether they'd sign the logs or not.)
> Nadine says that if you don't leave and take stamp impressions,
that
> you're just digging around in the bushes, that you're missing the
> point. Frank always agrees with Nadine.
> Now Nadine and I are curious about your reactions. So what do
you
> think--are Boyo and Wifey simply wrong (or wrong-headed), or are
> Nadine and Frank entirely too traditional and by-the-book?